service. when you see what's possible, we were able to see wi-fi enabled ship that could allow you to have 300 plus megabits per second data throughput. in short that would allow you to watch hdtv on a wireless device very easily. >> you are watching booktv. now, amy gutmann come university of pennsylvania talk to the tv about her latest book, "the spirit of compromise." she talked about her role as president at the university. this interview recorded at the university of pennsylvania in philadelphia as part of booktv is college series and is about 20 minutes.

>> you are watching booktv on c-span 2 and one of the things we like to do is visit college campuses. we contact you professors also authors and showcase books that she may not know about otherwise. we are pleased to be at the university of pennsylvania in philadelphia this week and were joined by the president of the university, amy gutmann. she's the author of this book, "the spirit of compromise: why governing demands it and campaigning undermines it." president gutmann, are we a politically compromised? >> guest: we were created in compromise. a lot of people think of the revolutionary war, which separated us from our mother country. but if you recall -- i know you weren't there then, but if you recall historically speaking our founding fathers crafted a

compromise that created the constitution. they were as polarized as any set of americans have been throughout our country and our history. they were pro-and anti-slavery and the compromise. so yes, we were founded in compromise, that today compromises become more difficult than ever before. >> host: what do you mean when you talk about the uncompromising mindset? >> guest: we live in an era characterized as a permanent campaign, where everyday is election day in campaigning and election may make for uncompromising minds. you stand in your principles, mobilize your base, drawing endless amounts of money. 20 for seven new site will cover his politics is that it's a horserace and the horse are on

steroids coming in to fund the campaign. but we mean by the uncompromising mindset is a minor that cared towards election and not towards governing. >> host: president gutmann come at you right to chew in your co-author, dennis thompson as we observe the changing scene in american politics, we came to believe the general problem could be addressed by concentrating on a particular institution, the united states congress. why is that? >> guest: if you want to see the problem with the uncompromising mindset, look no further than the 112th congress in washington. gridlock, nothing gets past the least legislation in the last 50 years. why? everybody's campaigning all the time. there's very little by way of relationships across the aisle and we ran up to a break of the

debt ceiling crisis in compromise was reached, retaining the half. we sat by focusing on the problem of congress whose popularity is at all-time lows. you can account for the 9% popularity by blood relatives and paid staffer. with that by on congress, we could diagnose the problem for how to overcome it. >> host: was one of those prescriptions? >> guest: one of those prescription is very simple, which is congressmen need to exercise leadership by putting aside the campaigning long enough to govern. and uncompromising mindset. in order to do that, they have

to spend more time in washington, less time raising money and people say that's going to hurt them in the next election. what we sais politicians didn't enter politics just to be stand on principle. few people think politicians are attracted to politics because they were the most principled people in a population. they retracted because they want to govern. leadership takes relationships. we have this phrase, which is familiarity breeds the tom. it is no accident that ted kennedy and orrin hatch crafted compromises. they were both strong partisan, but at the spirit of compromise. that's our main prescription for compromise. >> host: if you look at senator hatch county was well threatened abc 30 and that the primary potentially being ousted from office because of some of his compromises.

>> guest: true. compromise is difficult or governing has become more and more difficult. however, as politicians when we remember orrin hatch, is for passing legislation to protect children's health care. we're not going to remember politicians for their cowardice. we remember them for their courage. or we'll not remember positively, but for their courage. politicians to exercise leadership. we also talk about a set of reforms that would make it easier to compromise. reforming the filibuster, open primaries rather than closed primaries. limiting the amount of money. the problem is you can't get these reforms without compromise, so we all have our favorite reforms. politicians need to make some mindset family and the nets

eminently possible. >> host: you write unrestrained rhetoric, a third strategy and disagreement is designed to do with the fact that disagreement will persist on most issues. the democratic process is not always there even usually yield agreement, but allowed general consensus. what do you mean? >> guest: what we mean is we have a polarized politics right now. if each side stands on a favor principle, we look at no compromise, no deals, economic disaster. economizing on principles means finding places where you can concede some into the other side by finding ways in which your principles intersect with tears.

it is that some people call common ground. it is that some people call common ground. what we're saying is it's not all common ground. it's a green two things that the other side believes in that are consistent with bringing the ball forward according to your principles. so we do this on the time when they make deals outside of politics. you vote to what is most important for you to gain and you also give something to the other side. >> host: president gutmann, does the president does the president of the united states have evolved this compromise? >> guest: i thought you're going to ask the president of kansas. >> host: >> guest: the president does not have the rule. the president has appointed the direction of his and his party's principal, that the president also has to show that he's willing to make a good compromise. and i believe president obama has in fact done that. >> host: how so?

>> guest: the president has said and reached out across the aisle on various things with regard to economic reform, tax reform, immigration reform. i think that there's little doubt the president would be willing to compromise if the other party is willing to meet him part of the way. the other party job is to see how much it came at for its side and giving the issues we've been through, such as the fiscal cliff, the fact is there's no way out of these issues without compromise. i do think we will see compromise on something like immigration reform because democrat fixes destiny and the republicans as well as democrats recognize that they have to show

some support for immigration reform if they're not going to in the case of republicans, lose the hispanic population permanently to the republican party. so the president has already, i believe, shown willingness to compromise and all that data show that republicans are the party has moved further to the right and democrats have moved to the left, although both have moved to the extreme. i think we're going to see the president because he won the election been tough for rhetorically about not compromising, although saying he's open to compromise in order to see how far republicans are willing to move. >> we are taping this interview in the middle of the fiscal cliff debate. how do you see january 1st? how would you like to see january 1st, about? >> guest: well, it is clear

that the vast majority of americans and i am with the vast majority of americans on this, would like to see a compromise before the end of 2012. otherwise a lot of bad things will start happening. it's clear to me -- it's not clear whether there will be one, although both sides stand to lose and not a recipe for compromise. but it is clear that if there is any compromise before, there'll have to be after. better suited than later. >> host: president gutmann, does the president of the university of pennsylvania, ceo, family member had to compromise on a daily basis? >> guest: absolutely has to compromise, whether on a daily basis, one doesn't want to compromise. one shouldn't want to compromise. one should be willing to compromise when necessary to

achieve one's goal and that's true and personal relationships as well as politics and certainly true of the time in the professions. edmund burke, the great conservative philosopher said all human relations are based on compromise and i think he was right. >> host: back to the spirit of compromise, one projection and no hope of a better run becomes an obstacle to reaching the future compromise. >> guest: that is so true today of our politics. continual rejection of compromise in the continual demonization of one's political opponents in the permanent campaign has made compromise very difficult, even when it's entirely and absolutely an obviously necessary. >> host: what about the

supreme court? did they ever compromise? >> guest: one of the interesting things about the supreme court is while they give reasons for their opinions, we don't get a window into the packed chamber negotiations. that said, it is clear that they sometimes compromise. therefore, the decision on the affordable health care act, where judge chief justice roberts cited for liberals on the court, many people think may have been compromised. now, whether justices would speak of it as a compromise is doubtful. if you look how justices came down and pressure for opinions, it is plausible to think that decision with a compromise between interpretation of the commerce clause and upholding

the affordable care act. many other close decisions look like compromise. >> host: who is dennis thompson? >> guest: dennis thompson is my wonderful co-author who is professor of political science at harvard. many years ago when we repose at princeton university, we co-taught a course at the public policy and that led to his co-authored several books on deliberation and democracy. >> host: in the spirit of compromise, you get to vegetative examples. 1986 tax reform health care act. if you work, walk us through this. >> guest: this is a tale of two compromises and begins with ronald reagan presidency, where tax reform was a hugely

important issue and hugely difficult issue to get done between republicans and democrats. those of us who lived through the reagan era's recognize that people thought they were very polarized. tip o'neill was a staunch liberal democrat. ronald reagan's staunch republican. yes, they crafted a bipartisan compromise with bradley dan rostenkowski bob packwood being part of the movers of this compromise. password to the affordable care act. it is arguably even more difficult to craft a compromise within one party, the democratic party because of the permanent campaign and how not just polarized, but resistance to compromise the two parties were. so the comparison between the tax reform act and the

affordable care act helps us see how much more difficult compromise now is an how much more important it is for two parties to get together to craft a compromise on immigration, tax reform, and many other issues that the country now needs. >> host: is there a golden age of compromise? to real crises, 9/11 from a world to land themselves to compromise -- political compromise? >> guest: compromises always has and the way we should judge the ability of our politicians to compromise is what i heard the great goals they have succeeded in getting that they couldn't have without compromise. so the golden age, if there was one, and i'm inclined to think

there's ever a golden age, but there is a very important each of compromise, which founded this country. so i would go back to the constitution for all it's worth, and it had more than a word. it had an evil baked into it, the evil of slavery. the constitution made it possible to abolish slavery. you have to remember is the article of the confederation that preceded the constitution and the time, every state had a veto power over all legislation. so it was the establishment of the constitution of the united states was established in compromise and made the abolition of slavery ultimately possible. >> host: speaking of compromise, if the so-called fiscal cliff talks do not come to any kind of a conclusion, it's implemented, have you looked at how you're going to have to compromise university of

pennsylvania, how will affect the university of pennsylvania? >> guest: yeah, if we were to go over the fiscal cliff and even more so if there isn't a compromise that really establishes the american financial system and solid grounding, then there will be many ways in which we at the university and every university in this country will be compromised in the sense of compromising our quality. we will -- we depend upon the finding of biomedical research to spur innovation in this country. that will try to. we are committed to making affordable for all our undergraduates in that process

$181 million a year, twice the amount of the cost eight years ago because we've ramped up financial aid. the more unemployment in this country, the more we spend on financial aid and it would be a tragedy if this country moved in a direction to make education less affordable. so we as a university are very dependent and concerned about the fiscal health of this country. >> host: amy gutmann, are you also in the classroom at the university? >> guest: i enjoy teaching and take every opportunity to meet with students, talk to students and teacher my spare time. >> host: what does a provost do and how library at princeton? >> guest: i was at princeton for 28 years of the time i got my phd to the time i came to pan and was dean of the faculty at princeton and the chief

academic and financial officer at princeton or the progress works closely with the president. >> host: with the learning curve on being president of the university? >> guest: well, the learning curve is steep for anybody and it's also very exciting. >> host: gives a primer. just go the university of pennsylvania had 10,000 undergraduates and 10 dozen graduate students. we have about 4500 faculty members. we ran three hospitals and we have a great school of medicine as well as a great school of arts and sciences. we have 32,000 employees with the largest private employer in philadelphia. we like to think of ourselves as ben franklin university, a university which is elite, but

not of the disappeared were not an ivory tower. we believe in integrating two social impact of and economic for our city, for region and for the country in the world. >> host: by the way, since the original location? >> guest: now, we are in university city in west philadelphia. kind originally started in a very small downtown philadelphia and moved in university city, which we've helped make into a via brad arts and culture and economic club. >> host: once again, here is the book. it is "the spirit of compromise: why governing demands it and campaigning undermines it". amy gutmann and dennis thompson are the co-authors. this is booktv on c-span 2.

>> if you want to compare people come you got to first while persuade them that their soul is in dire danger, headed for the ultimate bond fire of the existence. and for that, you need to label them followers of the devil,. diabolical human beings. so they look to the devil and the titis -- a very complex religion well structured. they looked among the titis and the sound issue, dtt called

issue. i often refer to issue as the imminent hearing condition. the issue is on project boasts. issue exists to teach humanity. there's always more than one side to an issue. more than one face to the reality, two to shoot aware of appearances. issue is the embodiment of the lesson embedded in such things. i want to teach about their folly and being dogmatic about any issue in a very painful way. like a good teacher, symbolic

for those who haven't learned, looking at both sides of the question. his places at the crossroads, where he get confused. which rose to take at a crossroads? sound issue this is not allowed in the house. his places always at the doorstep because it's just too temperamental. before you do anything come and before you were shaped any of the titis, make sure you set aside a morsel for the messenger of the titis. you can deliver the message straight into the streets, but you may deliver it in a way without lying that makes you misinterpret the message. so when the missionaries came

about among the titis, the god of lightning cometh out of the rivers, kind of. t., god of war, et cetera, et cetera. that's the answer. the mischievous person with the devil. cert issued became christians the devil,. even in the translation of the bible, each time the devils issue. but as she was anything but evil. that is the truth. on the contrary, you'll find the symbol of issue because they see also who helps to interpret the scriptures of wisdom,

pharmacology, whiston bound up in the verse is, whose verses the design recite. the issue is anything but the devil. but today, it's very painful to find one pounds men and women referring to issue is the devil. by contrast, look at what happened with a move to the slaves to latin america. arrived with the knowledge that issue by the missionaries. they adopted issue of the dat. the christians who wanted them to come for. they became the symbol and latin

america. in fact, it would back in certain parts of brazil, you find the issue has even been elevated to the supreme dat, simply because that was the symbol that was there, the protagonists for freedom. and so we find the transportation of deity across the atlantic, certainly a dat became not only the symbol of resistance in the new world, but the supreme dat in certain parts of brazil. on the contrary, the heartland in brazil and you go to the shower trying, the hairy key is quite plain. now consider today and africa,

and this goes back a couple of centuries. imagine that today to be a follower of the religion is virtually to earn the death sentence in certain parts of nigeria. christians also earned the death sentence in certain parts of nigeria and christians respond in kind and set upon the muslim colleagues, usually in reprisal. but the level of intolerance based on ignorance has reached such that the papers any time in nigeria by ms. church has been burned down. a mosque has just been burned

down. worshipers bombed out of existence because even within the religion, there are different grades of purity. consider the other side not peer and therefore deserving. the institution however is not complicated. it is in fact in other societies. there's never one issue that leads to total capitalization of society.